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Waiting for the Greenlight From Valve

Developer David Gallant shares the trials and tribulations of getting a game through Steam's new submission process.

Now, a bit about Greenlight's comments: when logged in as the developer account linked to the game, every comment on the game's Greenlight page has a delete option. It would be so easy to purge a Greenlight page of any and all negative comments, but I refuse to do so. It wouldn't be fair, and I have no desire to live in an echo chamber of praise. However, I have used the function three times. Once was by accident: I was trying to highlight a comment from my phone so I could post it to Twitter as a #greenlightcomment, and my fat finger tapped "Delete" by mistake. There's no confirmation step to that process; touch "Delete" once and the comment is gone. I don't even think the user is notified, just as no user is notified of any replies to their comments. The system lacks any real social features, so there are no comment thread conversations as one might see on other websites.

The second time, I deleted a comment that was simply a death threat against another commenter. The third time, it was because the commenter said the game was made by someone with Down syndrome. This really got under my skin, not because I perceived it as a personal insult--it was not--but because of the implication that someone with Down syndrome is somehow limited to being able to create only ugly, terrible things. It was an insult to anyone afflicted with Down syndrome and an ignorant, insensitive statement to make. I deleted that comment, and then discovered the offending Steam user allows any other users to post comments on his profile. I posted there to notify him of his comment's deletion and the reason why I found the comment offensive. Within an hour, he had deleted my response from his profile.

I have determined to focus less on the Greenlight process going forward, so that I can devote more energy and focus to a new project. I still have no clue what that new project will be, but I feel like I have to move on.

01/20/2013: Day 21 of Greenlight. Stalled.

In terms of "progress", the graph says it all. Votes have slowed to a crawl compared to the top 100, the game advanced a whole 3% in a week (and I'm wondering if it is possible to make negative progress against that number--mathematically speaking, it could happen), and all this despite having renewed coverage. I'll be very surprised if the game ever makes it to 25%. This is how I predict things will remain for the foreseeable future.

Earlier this week, Valve Greenlit ten more games. No indication if they were the top ten, or what methods they used to come to their decision--expectedly inscrutable. The removal of ten games from voting had no perceivable impact on anyone's standings.

There was a brief glitch on Monday, the day before the Greenlighting, when everyone was showing as 100% in the blue bar. It made me feel the faintest pangs of hope, that maybe the game stood out to someone higher up, that perhaps it had been Greenlit and I had yet to be notified. A fleeting fantasy if ever there was one.

I Get This Call Every Day is up for sale on Indievania, and has resulted in two more sales. It is set to go on Desura (in the North American region only, thanks to some oddities in their minimum pricing guidelines) and is awaiting a final approval. Sales occasionally trickle in from my website, the first and primary place the game is being sold. Yesterday was my first day without a single sale, and today is my second.

I always knew I had created a game with limited appeal. It wasn't intentional, but I knew that reaching a wider audience would mean compromising aspects of the game that gave it meaning. Thus, I always knew it would come to this. I am very fortunate not to be in the position I have seen some of colleagues in: having "taken the plunge" and "gone full indie," the act of getting onto Steam becomes a salvation they desperately require. The exposure granted by merely being available on Steam is unlike any other form of promotion, and it can go a long way towards securing financial success. My finances are not yet dependent on the sales of my game, so I Get This Call Every Day's current performance on Greenlight is thankfully inconsequential. I have known others with more at stake to be in similar situations, and their lack of success with Steam was more damaging.

I have learned from this that while Steam can be a key to success, it had zero guarantees. Also, I became successful to myself the moment I made my first dollar from my own creation. That happened without Steam, and I know I can do it again on my own.

Kevin VanOrd
By Kevin VanOrd, Senior Editor

Kevin VanOrd is a lifelong RPG lover and violin player. When he isn't busy building PCs and composing symphonies, he watches American Dad reruns with his fat cat, Ollie.

114 comments
robfield
robfield

It's weird to hear that Greenlight has a delete comment button. As a community based webpage I figured Valve would at most allow a developer to report a comment, but deleting comments is a dangerous power to have.

I imagine a company like EA would not use that power wisely.

Anamon
Anamon

@robfield I think it's a good thing, too much nonsense is posted to not be moderated. I'm not worried that it's being abused to delete polite and valid criticism for two reasons. One, I don't think the people who are capable of making a game good enough to get greenlighted, are the same kind of people who would abuse the system like that. Two, if they did, people would notice and just start a shitstorm somewhere else. They must be aware of that?the Internet is not exactly a new thing anymore.

Developers and publishers who have a game released on Steam also get moderator access to the respective game forums, which is pretty much the same thing.

FakeKisser
FakeKisser like.author.displayName 1 Like

Great article, so enlightening. I read this article, because I have interest in the game and want to play through it. It just keeps slipping my mind. I support the Greenlight process, but I'll likely just go ahead and buy the game through Desura. I am amassing quite a collection there of great indies.

Kayim
Kayim

Firewater - Green Light (in Stereo)

jhonel83
jhonel83 like.author.displayName 1 Like

you pretty much made a game that't 5 minutes longer then the trailer. Are you amazed people don't want to pay for it? It comes down to principle really a) I want to pay 2 bucks to support an indie developer in the hope he's make something else. b) I would never pay a dime for a game that doesn't live up to my standards.  That's how it goes for me at least

FakeKisser
FakeKisser

@jhonel83 Do you feel the same way about Thirty Flights of Loving? That took me 15 minutes to play through, and I paid about $5 for it, but I found it worth my money. So, I think you're just speaking personally, and that's fine, but I do think that these shortform game experiences can have an audience. Maybe it's similar to people that pay rather high ticket prices to see short films at film festivals?

davidsgallant
davidsgallant like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@jhonel83 I'm amazed people WANT to pay for it. The game has actually sold far better than I ever expected. I think you maybe didn't really read the article.

jhonel83
jhonel83

@davidsgallant , I DID read the article, and I was left with the idea you were dissapointed with Valve's  GreenLight system and with sales in general. What you did with this game would be cool as included into another bigger game -like in go to your boss's office after beeing fired and confront him. Drive your car home after that (include driving sequence) and do something else there. Or spend the money you earned at your workplace for something. It's already been done in The Sims, more or less, but this could have been more indepth.

I don't know if you understand my point. I'm not saying what you have done is bad. I would pay to encourage you to develop that game further, but I woulnd't pay for it as a finished product. I'm sorry if I somewhat insulted you, that wasn't my purpose, and good luck in the future.

And gamespot, maybe notify us when someone replies to our comment? I had to find the article again and check my post. I remember you used to do it in the past, but atm your social mechanics are pretty strange.

logicalfrank
logicalfrank

Very interesting story. I wonder if a game like this might do better if packaged w/ a few like-minded titles in a bundle. It seems like for very small developers some pooling of resources could be beneficial in terms of trying to attract notice.

ampiva
ampiva

Greenlight is a terrible system. It's a shame that Steam has such a monopoly that you have to be almost forced to use it.

Sakuban
Sakuban like.author.displayName 1 Like

@ampiva Monopoly? There are tons of places to get digital copies of the games. And if you are mentioning the indie scene with that "monopoly." Ever heard of "Desura"? I bet not. It's because you are not really interested in the subject at all. You just comment for the sake of commenting.

davidsgallant
davidsgallant like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Sakuban @ampiva Steam is definitely the place with the most customers, the most "eyeballs" as it were. But I've gotten plenty of sales direct from my own website, and it's doing well on Desura too. It's also on IndieVania, but hasn't made much of a splash there.

Still, point is that no developer is "forced" to use it. It's a great place to be, but no monopoly.

aterdux_ent
aterdux_ent

@ampiva I have to disagree. In the past the process for developers was even harder - you submit your game and then you might receive a "no" without any further explanations. The Greenlight while it gives no guarantee, at least it gives some feedback - if a game has flaws, players will surely tell us what's wrong with it. It's way better than just receive a rejection with no reason why. 

SaurabhAV
SaurabhAV like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Mr Gallant, 

It is clear you care about the products you release. I think you are on to something with the game you designed. Sometimes it just takes repackaging to really sell! Just a long shot here.. perhaps you can team up with some developers considering you are getting a lot of exposure thanks to Gamespot and release a sequel to your game with more polished graphical design and overall production value. Best of luck! (ps: I would love your game on a mobile platform)

aterdux_ent
aterdux_ent

Well, interesting article, but it just shows that either there is no interest in game or there is no promotion. Our game Legends of Eisenwald made to top 100 in 6 days: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=113108799 and we now are in top 30. So, our experience is quite different from what is expressed in this article.

HecHocceH
HecHocceH

@aterdux_ent ? ????? ????? ??????????, ?????? ??????? ? ???????? ????????? ?? ?????. ?? ?, ????, ?????????? ????????????, ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????????. ?? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ???????? ?? ???? ????, ?? ??? ? ????????? ??????? ??????????? 

And I thought Russian developers have some sense. Shame on you(

aterdux_ent
aterdux_ent

@HecHocceH @aterdux_ent??? ? ????? ??????? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ????????? ???? ??????? ? ??? ? ??????? ??????? "??????????", ??????? ?????? ?? ????????? ? ????????, ??? ?????????? ?????? ????? ? ????????? ?? ?????????? ?? ???????? ?? ???...

Russian developers have sense. What's wrong with my post here? There is no shame in expressing an opinion, and there is no shame to show that experiences of people on Greenlight differ. Maybe putting a link to our game was a bit much, but I saw links in this thread below... It's a pity there is no "dislike" button here... If my post got too many dislikes, I would delete it. Write here, if you think I should. Let's say 5 votes against (short message with "-" would be enough) and no likes, and I will delete my posting... I still think there is value in discussion... 

rilpas
rilpas

@aterdux_ent so you log on just to advertisse your game and you the only game you rated in your account happens to be the game in this article jsut so you can give it a 1 out of 10?

Screw you, I actually voted "yes" for you guys, but for that crap alone I'm changing back to a "no"

aterdux_ent
aterdux_ent

Believe it or not, but we have to do everything we can to promote our game. I don't advertise it here but express my opinion on the topic. And bear in mind, we achieved it without ANY major gaming sites. It's a pity you voted no but I respect your choice. We will be greenlit anyway, and yes, I love our game and yes I voted 10 for it, do you expect me to say it's terrible? 

aterdux_ent
aterdux_ent

OK, I saw a slider next to this game and it was on the left position, and since no one else from our company has access to this account but me then I guess it must have been me who accidently clicked the rating. I reset it, went back, it's still showed the rating, I reset again. Damn, for this I am really sorry. As I said, I don't vote for games I don't play and I thought I voted here for our game only but that's also untrue since it doesn't have a voting yet. 

aterdux_ent
aterdux_ent

I see what's the issue here! No, I didn't vote his game 1/10!!! Because I don't know it and I didn't play it... I vote only for things that I played... And I don't remember that I voted here at all! I have to go and check it now what's going on here. 

rilpas
rilpas like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@aterdux_ent I expect you to not ride anyone's interview to advertise your game only to then to backslap the guy by voting his game a 1/10

Snowx1
Snowx1 like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

Good article. The article definitely gives a decent insight on being an independent person trying to setup a way to get your game to the masses. It can be pretty rough. A lot of these green-light games however really don't deserve to be on there.

Alpr1010
Alpr1010

I find all these greenlight games pretty lame, but hey, go for it.

FuriousHamst3r
FuriousHamst3r like.author.displayName 1 Like

Thanks you for the article Kevin, I will go have a look at the game and see if Mr. Gallant's game persuades me enough to buy  a copy! Thanks a bunch !

wavelength121
wavelength121

How about getting back to work on AAA titles like an actual game company instead of diddling around other people's work? I am a gamer for life and 99% of this "greenlighted" silliness fails to pique my interest. I want a Valve game, not some kid's school project. It's like the airline industry; if they aren't competent enough to stand on their own, let them fall.

Kevin-V
Kevin-V moderator moderatorstaff like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 30 Like

@wavelength121 Valve, the business, does not impact Valve, the developer, in the way you are dreaming it does. The ability for the business side of Valve to bring projects like this to the table allows them to make money--money then used to make games. Your skewed imagination of how this works is like saying that LucasFilm's involvement with audio design delayed Star Wars films, or that CBS's production on new CSI episodes won't begin because the CBS games people (that is, GameSpot) are busy writing reviews. (We are owned by CBS, of course.) The people making games are not suddenly asked to go handle business concerns. The art team is not told, "hey guys, sorry, but we don't want you making art today, because we need you to handle Greenlight marketing concerns today." I'm not told, "hey, you are busy writing and all, but can you do some Olympic ice dancing commentary for CBS Sports?"

"Let them fall?" There is incredible talent out there, and Valve is one of very few publishers in a position to nurture talent and expose it. And thank God for that. Talent Valve nurtures now could be talent that later brings us a game beyond our wildest imagination--the kind that Valve makes. (You realize, I would hope, that Valve has a long history of bringing in independent talent; they discovered great teams, then brought them in to bring us games like Dota 2, Counter-Strike Source, and Portal. If Valve thought the way you do, we wouldn't have those wonderful games.) Valve understands--as you do not--that giving developers a way to bring their creative efforts to a bigger audience is only a good thing. If you are indeed a "gamer for life," then you should appreciate the diversity in games; you may not be interested in any given game, but many other people probably are. If the industry worked the way you think it should, we'd have nothing but Call of Duty clones, Dance games, and Mario, because there would be no one to support new, creative ideas the way Valve and other companies do now.

In other words, your comment is really short-sighted, rejects why Valve has been able to make (and afford to make) great games in the first place, and shows a dramatic misunderstanding of how business and development work. Good job!

Sauvent
Sauvent like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

Great time to post this, Kevin. I was just considering using Greenlight to publish my first game in the future (my goal is to finish it by the end of the year, but I doubt it).

I'm making it in C++, I started it a month ago, but I practiced the last six months creating small games and man, its a painfully long and tiresome process, it's ridiculous! I deeply respect anyone who actually finished a game, even if the game looks awful to everyone else.

Sadly, it's hard to find motivation to continue with the creation of any project knowing that the gaming community in general is extremely hard to please. Just go to the Greenlight forums and read all the negativity: it's extremely demotivating reading people that say that "the game sucks", "the graphics sucks", "the game is not worth 10 bucks", stuff like that, and don't get me started on games that charge whatever the buyer wants to pay and they pay the minimum or just pirate the game anyway.

I'm not demotivated by the comments per sé (I think most developers can handle criticism), I'm demotivated by the lack of maturity and empathy of the community in general, and every day that I start writing code, I say to myself: "is it worth it?", without having a clear answer.


Either way, thanks for posting this.

davidsgallant
davidsgallant like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Sauvent I never really wrote this journal intending for all of GameSpot to read it; if I had, I would have ended on a more general note: don't make a game to please a bunch of people. Make the game you want to make. Make the game you want to play. Nuts to anyone who tells you otherwise.

emandanijeldax
emandanijeldax like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Sauvent One should never give up! In the end, it will be worth it. Keep up with the game!

ootiiGames
ootiiGames like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

Wow. Thanks Kevin for posting this story.

As a game maker in the same struggling position as Mr. Gallant it is pretty eye-opening to hear the perspective about Steam's Greenlight from someone in a more average Joe position. It reveals a lot of flaws that I hadn't considered before. For our studio's next project we had considered using Steam, but hearing this story and knowing we are in the similar situation I wonder if we will just be repeating Mr. Gallant's history. It sounds very similar to our Kickstarter campaign in terms of how much info and how much support you actually get if you don't bring a lot to the table yourself immediately.

SsangyongKYRON
SsangyongKYRON like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 12 Like

It's terrible how some ignorant people comment on these games. You'll never imagine how hard and tiresome to program and design even an indie game. I've learned some programming so I know how hard these amazing developers can do with their effort. Thank you to all of you indie developers out there, keep your great games coming, we love them and we appreciate your time creating such great experiences.

highlanderjimd
highlanderjimd like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

@SsangyongKYRON well said, the amout of trolls and idiots these hard working devs have to put up with is getting silly these days, so many CODtards shouting that the graffixxxx aint shit man! Shame GOG or someone couldent get involved, the greenlight thing on steam is probably preventing a lot of gems from being made.

Sakuban
Sakuban like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@highlanderjimd @SsangyongKYRON I agree there's terrible comments floating in the community too. But nobody is preventing anything. This games are being made and distributed before and after the greenlight. They're giving developers a great chance to distribute it to the masses. And you are wrong, it's not the only place for indie games. "Desura" is a great place of indie games. I've even purchased many games in-development there.

Sakuban
Sakuban like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 8 Like

Only reason i love Gamespot is the articles of the editors. They're quite a read. Last week, i adored an article about Interactive Fiction and the tool "Twine". You can find game reviews and previews on anywhere but not these articles. It's sad actually there's not an archive for the articles in the web site. I wish there's a menu item for articles which you can examine by the author. I could dig such thing whole day.

jmmijo
jmmijo like.author.displayName 1 Like

I wish this developer luck with this and any other projects they are working on, but frankly I play games to get away from these kinds of customers and not to remind myself of the pain I feel each and every work day.

I too work in a customer service job and I have to deal with folks like this all the time, I keep it professional and courteous and after my shift I let loose on games.

I can see where some would find this a great way to release the tensions of the work day but I will pass.

Rippletonz
Rippletonz

I don't think anybody would be terribly surprised if this game doesn't get greenlit, including the developer.  It looks cool, and I like the concept, but it's not an extremely marketable game, just like working in a call center is not an extremely desirable job.  That's what he meant when he said "I knew that reaching a wider audience would mean compromising aspects of the game that gave it meaning."  So the outcome isn't necessarily surprising, but still it was interesting to see an inside perspective on how PGL functions.  Knowing Valve, a lot of what the users and developers see and vote on is probably fairly inconsequential in deciding which games are greenlit.  That's not to say the users and devs are ignored, I just think Valve observes all of those things and makes their own assessment in the end of which games they want to pick, based on their own set of criteria.  If anything, they should make the process a bit more transparent for the devs. 

deth420
deth420 like.author.displayName 1 Like

Nice article! 

...way to put yourself out there, hope it works out!!

dark_lord_anuar
dark_lord_anuar like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

This was an amazing read, very interesting and informative. Thanks 4 sharing

Rattlesnake_8
Rattlesnake_8

So basically to sum it up all services offered to indie devs suck and they are better off doing it the Minecraft way.. make a website and market it yourself.

Rippletonz
Rippletonz like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@Rattlesnake_8 You may very well be right about that.  But I still appreciate Valve for making an effort to empower indie developers, and creative people in general.  They may not have hit the nail on the head with Greenlight, but maybe they will listen to feedback and improve upon the process.  

Jazztickets
Jazztickets like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Ya know what Kevin is pretty cute. Ya know i'm a guy and think we're all here mature enough to know what is it to do.

decoy1978
decoy1978 like.author.displayName 1 Like

This was a great read!

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