An Augment guide for those who always want more *SPOILERS*
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Aug 10, 2008 3:10 pm GMT
don't be ridiculous. 26k is the damage you'd do with darkness active. ???'s love by itself is only around 13k on geryon and 11k on proto-babil, which is about 1.5x a regular attack.Yea, Darkness or Adrenaline w/Cry. The output is still much better than Twincast Ultima from all my tests.
So basically, these ridiculous damage calculations are only going to be used for Protobabil. As such, I ran a few fights vs Babil with various set-ups and these were the numbers. Keep in mind Edge used Cry first turn every fight
Rydia Meteor - 9.5k-12.5k
Rydia Adrenaline Meteor - 22k-25k
Kain Darkness Jump - 32k-35k
Kain Darness Focus Jump - 64k-72k
Kain Darkness Adrenaline Jump - 64k-72k
Dualcast Meteor basically takes as much time to cast as Jump. You can get in roughly 2 regular attacks in the frame of a jump or meteor cast.
In the front row with Onion Sword, Kain was meleeing for about 7.5k-8k. So you could do 3 melee attacks in the span of a darkness jump, netting you about 10k more damage. After that, you get about 18k more damage per jump over attack.
Rydia, on the other hand, only gains about 5k per Dualcast. Doesn't seem like to hot of a deal. With Adrenaline that jumps up to about 28k more per dualcast, but Kain actually gets more from Adrenaline and doesn't risk as much since he's in the air.
Thanks for bringing that up. Guess Kain/Cecil LB is the way to go. Time to figure out an alternate leveling strat with Rydia >_<
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3952-6933-9585 Brawl
Aug 10, 2008 3:12 pm GMT
So, it's an upgrade on Attack, not a passive support ability, right?
So, it wouldn't work with, say Jump, or Kick?
Correct, ??? Love is not a passive support. You replace ??? Love with Attack and it doesn't work with Jump or Kick.
Since I am at beginning of second playthrough. I am going to kill some Goblins to test ??? Love vs Attack. Maybe someone can come up with the damage formula. I will post within an hour or so.
Aug 10, 2008 3:19 pm GMT
StUffIng - Do you have max stats for all your characters when you tested these attacks?
I am testing Level 10 Cecil with ??? Love vs Attack now.
Aug 10, 2008 3:27 pm GMT
twincast ultima is around 90k per cast and takes less time than a single jump command. in fact you could an ultima and be 2/3rd of the way done charging to your second in the time it takes for 1 darkness + jump. it's the same deal for dual meteor.
jump is the slowest command of the three.
unless your chars are horribly slow, there's no reason you can't get in 4 turns to one jump.
only 2 attacks per jump is completely just unreasonable.
Aug 10, 2008 3:32 pm GMT
Yea, max stats hitting Protobabil (the only enemy worth testing on, since everything else is basically a pushover.)
For Cecil with LB and ????'s Love, Kain with LB, and Rydia without either, here's the leveling for max stats.
Kain
Limit Break 71-99
Piercing Magic 71-99
Inferno 71-98
Twincast 71-99
Pheonix 98-99
Rydia
Inferno 71-99
Curse 71-99
Whirlwind 71-99
Counter 71-77
Bardsong 77-99
And yea, ????'s Love basically just puts a 1.5x modifier on max stat Cecil with Onion sword. It puts his attack power at 297 (198 from Onion Sword + 99 Whyt battles.)
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3952-6933-9585 Brawl
Aug 10, 2008 3:39 pm GMT
How can Edge get 40k by hiding and throwing?
Aug 10, 2008 3:41 pm GMT
twincast ultima is around 90k per cast and takes less time than a single jump command. in fact you could an ultima and be 2/3rd of the way done charging to your second in the time it takes for 1 darkness + jump. it's the same deal for dual meteor.
jump is the slowest command of the three.
unless your chars are horribly slow, there's no reason you can't get in 4 turns to one jump.
only 2 attacks per jump is completely just unreasonable.
99 speed for all chars.
Without haste, it took Kain one Fast Talker Twincast and Cecil's ATB recharge to execute Jump. Keep in mind Kain selected Jump after Twincast was selected.
Jump is slow, but it's not THAT slow.
Best part of all - all 3 tests I did for Jump vs Twincast, Rosa and Cecil did Pyroblast. Got to love relying on that 10% cast.
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3952-6933-9585 Brawl
Aug 10, 2008 3:43 pm GMT
Jump takes 4 full ATB charges. It is that slow, I've tested it numerous times. I don't know what that would translate to stuff like twincast though
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Aug 10, 2008 3:44 pm GMT
One of those includes the charge to actually use jump(since everyone needs to charge at least once to get a turn of course) Not counting that it's 3 full ATB charges But to put it simple you can use 4 regular attacks in the time of one jump
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Aug 10, 2008 3:54 pm GMT
here's a scenario i tested.
everyone at max stats, battle start, vs 4 bomb dudes. everyone at full atb bar. i didn't even bother to haste.
1 - kain jumps
2 - cecil immediately spams attack.
result: cecil kills all 4 bombs while kain is sitll in the air.
jump IS that slow.
here's another one. battle starts vs abyss-worm.
1 - kain jumps
2 - cecil and rosa both start twincasting.
3 - does 9999 to worm and starts twincasting again. (i didn't put on limit break)
4 - kain lands for 9999 and by the time his atb charged up...guess what? 2nd ultima is about 95% done charging.
Aug 10, 2008 4:02 pm GMT
With 99 speed, I simply waited till all chars were at full bars, then auto-battled. Kain got off exactly 2 Jumps for 3 Fasttalker Twincasts.
With Haste, this turned into 2 Fast Talker Twincasts per 1 jump.
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3952-6933-9585 Brawl
Aug 10, 2008 4:07 pm GMT
Finally got my results after killing 30 Goblins. (Took almost an hour)
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Here is my Level 10 Cecil's stats:
Level 10 Cecil
Str 13
Speed 10
Stamina 11
Intellect 6
Spirit 3
Attack 10
Accuracy 85
Def 12
Evasion 22
Magic Def 1
Magic Eva 0
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Weapon: Dark Sword
Attack Damage during battle..........................................10
??? Love Damage during battle...............10 + 99 = 109
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Here are the results from killing Goblins: (Critical hits don't count)
.......................................Attack......................??? Love.........................??? Love + Darkness
Goblin 01........................37...............................376............................................758
Goblin 02........................35...............................376............................................834
Goblin 03........................37...............................405............................................856
Goblin 04........................39...............................447............................................888
Goblin 05........................41...............................451............................................872
Goblin 06........................35...............................434............................................896
Goblin 07........................39...............................371............................................854
Goblin 08........................39...............................414............................................932
Goblin 09........................34...............................460............................................794
Goblin 10........................38...............................443............................................912
Average...........................37.4............................417.7........................................859.6
Not sure if this information tells us anything. Oh well, I guess we can try to figure out the damage formula here.
Aug 10, 2008 4:09 pm GMT
Is it worth it for Kain to jump or to strictly attack? Jump only does 2x damage, right?
I can see that Focus x3 makes Jump better, but if you don't focus it seems like attack gets off more damage.
Aug 10, 2008 4:23 pm GMT
here's a scenario i tested.
everyone at max stats, battle start, vs 4 bomb dudes. everyone at full atb bar. i didn't even bother to haste.
1 - kain jumps
2 - cecil immediately spams attack.
result: cecil kills all 4 bombs while kain is sitll in the air.
jump IS that slow.
here's another one. battle starts vs abyss-worm.
1 - kain jumps
2 - cecil and rosa both start twincasting
3 - does 9999 to worm and starts twincasting again. (i didn't put on limit break)
4 - kain lands for 9999 and by the time his atb charged up...guess what? 2nd ultima is about 95% done charging.
99 speed for everyone.
Stopped all monsters.
Allowed all bars to charge, then auto-battle.
Without Haste, Edge got in 3 attacks and about 50% bar charge before jump landed.
With Haste, Edge got in 4 attacks and about 10% bar charge landed.
Yea, I guess for automated purposes, it's pretty slow. Not OMG Twincast 4 times before jump slow, but slow.
One thing you have to accomodate for, though, is reaction time. Since Jump will be processing while you choose your actions, unless you do everything within a split second (or auto-battle, if you are up for that vs Babil,) jump gets the edge.
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3952-6933-9585 Brawl
Aug 10, 2008 9:18 pm GMT
Looks like we have a conclusion.
That is: Jump + Darkness > Meteor x 2 OR Twincast Ultimate OR Holy x 2
Does everyone agree with this?
Aug 10, 2008 9:27 pm GMT
Is Auto-battle really the best way to test it? There appears to be a delay between the bar filling and the command being selected. I suppose at Speed 6 it wouldn't matter...
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AW
oR - 425325-993016
Aug 10, 2008 10:28 pm GMT
Thanks GauRocks, I was about to worry that I would have to plan out my augment leveling myself. Which usually ruins the game for me as I tend to get to analytical. ^_^b
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Aug 10, 2008 11:56 pm GMT
I have been semi-following this thread. Does this end conclusion mean that I will be unable to beat Proto-Babil if I have followed SBAllen's guide for the first playthrough?
I have not spent limit break yet or started the second playthrough.
Is there an effective way to continue, so that I will still be able to beat this boss?
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Brawl Code: 1032-0922-1772
Aug 11, 2008 7:31 am GMT
StUffIng - Could you do one more testing to test Rydia's Bahamut damage? And yes, I do know that you can only cast one summon spell, not two. However, I would like to know if Bahamut damage is higher than 2 x meteor. And what about the cast time for Bahamut?
Aug 11, 2008 8:19 am GMT
I thought that cast time for Bahamut and damage should be identical to Meteor since they're both Cast-Time 10 and Power 250.
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AW
oR - 425325-993016
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